Transgender athletes in high stakes races

[diablita]

The Globe had an article up yesterday regarding transgender athletes in races with a focus on women who may or may not have taken medication to suppress testosterone levels:

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-marathon/2018/04/08/boston-marathon-trans-women

I'm specifically asking the question here (versus the main circus ring) because I'd like to know how other runners feel about this. 

Do you think a trans female racer should race as a female if no testosterone suppression medication has been taken?  Does it make a difference to you if the racer is elite and/or the race is high stakes?  If you're a cisgender female runner, how would you feel if you took second place in an important race and the winner were a trans female who had not medically transitioned?  Any thoughts on transgender males who have/haven't transitioned?

[Arrojo]

The Globe had an article up yesterday regarding transgender athletes in races with a focus on women who may or may not have taken medication to suppress testosterone levels:

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-marathon/2018/04/08/boston-marathon-trans-women

I'm specifically asking the question here (versus the main circus ring) because I'd like to know how other runners feel about this. 

Do you think a trans female racer should race as a female if no testosterone suppression medication has been taken?  Does it make a difference to you if the racer is elite and/or the race is high stakes?  If you're a cisgender female runner, how would you feel if you took second place in an important race and the winner were a trans female who had not medically transitioned?  Any thoughts on transgender males who have/haven't transitioned?

It's only a (potential) issue for elites or for other races where such women have a chance to medal.   For mid-pack schmoes like me (or mid-pack women analogous to me) its a non-issue but many people use it as a sword to mask their anti-transgender bias.

At the elite level (or even at a local masters track meet for example where medals are up for grabs).  I do think testosterone suppression medication is necessary.  I wonder why such a person would not take testosterone suppression.  If you truly believe you are a female wouldn't you want to not grow facial hair and have a deep voice and other things that testosterone gives you?  I guess I don't know enough - are they medical reasons why a trans-female would not take testosterone suppression?

[diablita]

I agree that I don't know enough either.  Maybe there's a high cost associated with the medication? 

But also, transition is a gradual process so you could have someone who has finally decided to go through the process and perhaps started it.  I'd hate to think that person would have one more thing they can't do easily (register for a race) if a talented runner. 

It's pretty complicated.

[Suesquatch]

Transgender folks should not be allowed to compete. Women still have the advantage as trans women of larger hearts and stronger bones and deeper lung capacity and estrogen doesn't do much to change that. Trans men - well, with rare exception, I don't know why they would want to compete because even on steroids they're not going to be as strong as cis men. Your mileage may vary on that one, obviously.

[Arrojo]

Transgender folks should not be allowed to compete.

Period?  End of discussion?  No competition for you, go to your room!  What if they are a back of the backer or mid-packer with zero hope of winning a medal?  What if they (like the masses of us) just want to run a 5K or a 10K or finish a marathon.  What if they are a charity runner who wants to raise money for domestic violence victims and their goal is to finish the marathon in 4 hours?

[Suesquatch]

Go do a turkey trot. Don't compete at a noney making level.

[Natasha]

We had this discussion in the old CH with Dana.

It’s not fair to the cisgender woman who did not grow up in her formative years with the advantages of so much testosterone. Some of those advantages persist, even after surgery and hormones.

And I may be a middle of the pack runner, but if it’s a small, local race I do have the potential to get an age group medal. I’d be irritated if a transgender woman beat me.

Either way, someone gets screwed.

[radial]

If I were in charge of everything, I would get rid of gender distinctions altogether, at least at the macro level.  Let everybody go head to head.  You can parse the results any way you like.  And dole out the hardware accordingly if it suits you.  But racing is racing.  If I beat you across the finish line, I beat you. 

[Fast Eddie]

Trans athletes report they do not have an advantage over CIS gendered women.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-edge-i-sure-dont/2015/04/01/ccacb1da-c68e-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.797d85b8137d

There isn't one sport of note where a trans athlete is dominating (if you believe South African runner Caster Semenya is genetically female).

[witchypoo]

Period?  End of discussion?  No competition for you, go to your room!  What if they are a back of the backer or mid-packer with zero hope of winning a medal?  What if they (like the masses of us) just want to run a 5K or a 10K or finish a marathon.  What if they are a charity runner who wants to raise money for domestic violence victims and their goal is to finish the marathon in 4 hours?

1.

and i'd argue elites should be able to run, too.  take dutee chand and caster semenya as examples (even though they are not trans).

the iaaf policy on hyperandrogenism was suspended for a reason.  let these folks participate as post-tx gender.

[Suesquatch]

Trans athletes report they do not have an advantage over CIS gendered women.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-edge-i-sure-dont/2015/04/01/ccacb1da-c68e-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.797d85b8137d

There isn't one sport of note where a trans athlete is dominating (if you believe South African runner Caster Semenya is genetically female).

Well, if she said so it must be true.

[Arrojo]

Well, if she said so it must be true.

As opposed to you saying it so it must also be true.

She more than 'said it'. She published a study:

"My research, published last month in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, found that collectively, the eight subjects got much slower after their gender transitions and put up nearly identical age-graded scores as men and as women, meaning they were equally — but no more — competitive in their new gender category. (The outlier was a runner who had raced recreationally as a 19-year-old male and became serious about the sport — doubling her training load and shedding 22 pounds — years later as a female.)"

Not sure if 8 subjects is a statistically valid sample but it might be. She adds

"To be clear: This study speaks only to distance running. Trans women who are sprinters may maintain something of an advantage over other female runners in that they tend to carry more muscle mass, potentially allowing for increased speed over short distances. (Whereas extra muscle mass is a disadvantage in distance running.) And since gender transition doesn't affect height, it would make sense that transgender women would have advantages over other women in sports such as basketball, where size is so important, and disadvantages in sports such as gymnastics, where greater size is an impediment."

We should all give more weight to statistical studies than to opinions or anecdotal evidence about any subject.

[Suesquatch]

Ah. So she agrees that there are some areas where trans women could be advantaged.

I amend my original statement. Trans women should not compete as women in those areas where they are advantaged.

Why were we asked for opinions, again?

[RandMart]

Why were we asked for opinions, again?

diablita thought it was worth asking about?

[diablita]

Why were we asked for opinions, again?

I mean, why do we have the CH?

It's interesting to know what other people think and was an article in the Globe the other day.  It's not an easy question though beyond hypothetical it doesn't impact many.

[Suesquatch]

It was rhetorical,  d.

[SnarlyMarly]

Transgender folks should not be allowed to compete. Women still have the advantage as trans women of larger hearts and stronger bones and deeper lung capacity and estrogen doesn't do much to change that. Trans men - well, with rare exception, I don't know why they would want to compete because even on steroids they're not going to be as strong as cis men. Your mileage may vary on that one, obviously.

I kind of agree to an extent. However, I am going to play devils advocate, a little, a born woman can take drugs for years and have the same advantages. She gets caught. Serves a 2 year ban and good to go.   I would the think after a transgender is two year testosterone free..let them compete.

Of course the real problem is the 2 year drug ban is lame.     

And I indeed have racked my bike next to little old ladies like me and then do a double take at one woman that was 6'2 200ish pounds with a ton of make up and a wig.  And yes she was racking up for worlds as a 50 year woman.   Have to admit, I thought someone in Europe got screwed out of a spot.

[Richard21142]

The 100 and 200 meter champ at the CT Class M girls state meet last year was a male.  He identified as a female.  The previous year in junior high, he was on the boys team.  This kinda violates the spirit of Title Nine.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Championship races (from state [including high school], regional, to nationals or international levels) and money they should go by a limit of testosterone levels. At the lower levels this is harder to manage, but another athlete that gets displaced should have a right to an appeal so they would get an award. So if a transgender athlete who gets silver or gold at the state championship doesn't want to give up the award, well so be it, make up couple more and send them those that get displaced. It would be too much to put a supertexted ^c or ^t by the name of the athlete, so results might be confusing. At the national and international level, it should be a no brainer. But the governing bodies (IAAF and IOC) have waffled (gone back and forth). The women's 800 m is now dominated by transgender women.

For turkey trots or local road races with no monetary gain, that'd be real hard to enforce. Another thing--wouldn't be popular--would be to make a transgender class at some races.

[diablita]

https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/transgender-lawsuit-crossfit/index.html

Apparently CrossFit has taken a tougher stance on this than the IOC